Comments on: Electricity that’s cheaper than free http://www.marcgunther.com/2009/10/27/electricity-thats-cheaper-than-free/ This blog is about the impact of business on society. Thu, 09 Feb 2012 19:14:58 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Deam http://www.marcgunther.com/2009/10/27/electricity-thats-cheaper-than-free/comment-page-1/#comment-284387 Deam Sun, 07 Mar 2010 16:50:51 +0000 http://www.marcgunther.com/?p=2590#comment-284387 50 years ago nuclear enthusiasts were promising power "too cheap to meter". They never conceived of the possibility of power even cheaper than that! 50 years ago nuclear enthusiasts were promising power “too cheap to meter”. They never conceived of the possibility of power even cheaper than that!

]]> By: Jason Thomas http://www.marcgunther.com/2009/10/27/electricity-thats-cheaper-than-free/comment-page-1/#comment-283797 Jason Thomas Thu, 29 Oct 2009 19:54:48 +0000 http://www.marcgunther.com/?p=2590#comment-283797 This is not a problem. It's a good thing. It is creating an economic incentive for the cement plant to shift its demand to off-peak hours. It may not be enough incentive yet for the night-making of cement.... but it's pointed in the right direction. Maybe the night-running of servers or night-charging of electric forklifts. Bottom line: Don't fix a problem that is not a problem. This is not a problem. It’s a good thing. It is creating an economic incentive for the cement plant to shift its demand to off-peak hours. It may not be enough incentive yet for the night-making of cement…. but it’s pointed in the right direction. Maybe the night-running of servers or night-charging of electric forklifts. Bottom line: Don’t fix a problem that is not a problem.

]]> By: Looking at Energy Storage at Watt Matters – Commentary on Electricity Competition http://www.marcgunther.com/2009/10/27/electricity-thats-cheaper-than-free/comment-page-1/#comment-283794 Looking at Energy Storage at Watt Matters – Commentary on Electricity Competition Thu, 29 Oct 2009 14:33:22 +0000 http://www.marcgunther.com/?p=2590#comment-283794 [...] interesting blog post by Marc Gunther – sustainability expert/Fortune Contributing Editor – yesterday on the importance of emerging [...] [...] interesting blog post by Marc Gunther – sustainability expert/Fortune Contributing Editor – yesterday on the importance of emerging [...]

]]> By: Joel Malina http://www.marcgunther.com/2009/10/27/electricity-thats-cheaper-than-free/comment-page-1/#comment-283791 Joel Malina Wed, 28 Oct 2009 19:58:40 +0000 http://www.marcgunther.com/?p=2590#comment-283791 Great post, Marc. Suggest you check out the COMPETE Coalition (http://www.competecoalition.com/), a group of nearly 400 electricity customers, suppliers, generators, transmission owners, and others who support the continued development of competitive electricity markets. COMPETE’s diverse membership support competitive markets because they foster innovative technologies like energy storage. Ultimately, energy storage and other innovative technologies give generators and consumers alike more reliability and choice – and, in turn, can help address the challenge of global climate change. Great post, Marc. Suggest you check out the COMPETE Coalition (http://www.competecoalition.com/), a group of nearly 400 electricity customers, suppliers, generators, transmission owners, and others who support the continued development of competitive electricity markets. COMPETE’s diverse membership support competitive markets because they foster innovative technologies like energy storage. Ultimately, energy storage and other innovative technologies give generators and consumers alike more reliability and choice – and, in turn, can help address the challenge of global climate change.

]]> By: Dana http://www.marcgunther.com/2009/10/27/electricity-thats-cheaper-than-free/comment-page-1/#comment-283789 Dana Wed, 28 Oct 2009 14:36:09 +0000 http://www.marcgunther.com/?p=2590#comment-283789 Another form of storage is ice plants, I have read a little on this. The plant generates large amounts of ice at night and then sends cold water to local buildings for cooling during the day, this saves the buildings from running their air conditioners or chillers during the day. This can work well where there are many large buildings close together that the cost of the additional piping would be worth the savings. Another form of storage is ice plants, I have read a little on this. The plant generates large amounts of ice at night and then sends cold water to local buildings for cooling during the day, this saves the buildings from running their air conditioners or chillers during the day. This can work well where there are many large buildings close together that the cost of the additional piping would be worth the savings.

]]> By: Marc http://www.marcgunther.com/2009/10/27/electricity-thats-cheaper-than-free/comment-page-1/#comment-283787 Marc Wed, 28 Oct 2009 13:55:50 +0000 http://www.marcgunther.com/?p=2590#comment-283787 Thanks, Kevin, what's unclear is whether the answer is (1) more and massive transmission (2) more and massive storage or (3) distributed generation and localized storage as in electric car batteries. John Harrell of the Institute for Local Self Reliance posted here the other day arguing on behalf of distribution: http://www.marcgunther.com/2009/10/24/john-harrell-say-no-to-transmission/ I'm in favor of humility. Which would argue for less top-down government management of the system and more experimentation and market-friendly solutions...provided of course that we capture the externality (GHG emissions) of burning fossil fuels, Thanks, Kevin, what’s unclear is whether the answer is (1) more and massive transmission (2) more and massive storage or (3) distributed generation and localized storage as in electric car batteries. John Harrell of the Institute for Local Self Reliance posted here the other day arguing on behalf of distribution:

http://www.marcgunther.com/2009/10/24/john-harrell-say-no-to-transmission/

I’m in favor of humility. Which would argue for less top-down government management of the system and more experimentation and market-friendly solutions…provided of course that we capture the externality (GHG emissions) of burning fossil fuels,

]]> By: Kevin Hagen http://www.marcgunther.com/2009/10/27/electricity-thats-cheaper-than-free/comment-page-1/#comment-283786 Kevin Hagen Wed, 28 Oct 2009 13:45:08 +0000 http://www.marcgunther.com/?p=2590#comment-283786 Good post Marc, it's fun to identify the counterintuitive situations that are probably indicators of underlying system issues. While more transmission capacity is the conventional response (and probably needed anyway) a new direction is even a better response. Big central generation (renewable or not) has fundemental flaws and the economies of scale do not always pan out. Distributed Generation - putting production and use closer together - even when generation is at micro scale has many advantages. Another step will be smarter grid/load/generation networking rather than large command and control solutions. The technology for much of this already exists. 50,000 DG solar genoration sites already exist in CA. The big issue is that utility companies will need to adopt their business model from being electricty pushers to being the connector, delivery and service provider. A great read on the 100s of ways a DG grid will create value is "small is beautiful" by Amory Lovins at Rocky Mountain Institute Good post Marc, it’s fun to identify the counterintuitive situations that are probably indicators of underlying system issues. While more transmission capacity is the conventional response (and probably needed anyway) a new direction is even a better response. Big central generation (renewable or not) has fundemental flaws and the economies of scale do not always pan out. Distributed Generation – putting production and use closer together – even when generation is at micro scale has many advantages. Another step will be smarter grid/load/generation networking rather than large command and control solutions. The technology for much of this already exists. 50,000 DG solar genoration sites already exist in CA. The big issue is that utility companies will need to adopt their business model from being electricty pushers to being the connector, delivery and service provider. A great read on the 100s of ways a DG grid will create value is “small is beautiful” by Amory Lovins at Rocky Mountain Institute

]]> By: Marc http://www.marcgunther.com/2009/10/27/electricity-thats-cheaper-than-free/comment-page-1/#comment-283785 Marc Wed, 28 Oct 2009 12:45:20 +0000 http://www.marcgunther.com/?p=2590#comment-283785 Thanks, Tom, I am sure you are right and your blog post is helpful. Building transmission isn't easy, though. And given the fact that the supply is greater than demand in the night in Texas, say, wouldn't you have to send the electricity an awfully long way to get it to a place where there was more demand? Thanks, Tom, I am sure you are right and your blog post is helpful. Building transmission isn’t easy, though. And given the fact that the supply is greater than demand in the night in Texas, say, wouldn’t you have to send the electricity an awfully long way to get it to a place where there was more demand?

]]> By: Tom Konrad http://www.marcgunther.com/2009/10/27/electricity-thats-cheaper-than-free/comment-page-1/#comment-283782 Tom Konrad Wed, 28 Oct 2009 05:01:28 +0000 http://www.marcgunther.com/?p=2590#comment-283782 A better (less expensive) solution to negative energy prices is not storage, but better transmission. Currently, we only have localize negative prices for electricity. Why not export it to surrounding regions where the price is positive? Because we don't have the necessary wires. Wires are cheaper than storage. See: http://www.altenergystocks.com/archives/2009/06/large_scale_energy_storage_technologies_compared_1.html A better (less expensive) solution to negative energy prices is not storage, but better transmission. Currently, we only have localize negative prices for electricity. Why not export it to surrounding regions where the price is positive? Because we don’t have the necessary wires. Wires are cheaper than storage.

See:
http://www.altenergystocks.com/archives/2009/06/large_scale_energy_storage_technologies_compared_1.html

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