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	<title>Comments on: An apple juice puzzle</title>
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	<link>http://www.marcgunther.com/2009/07/09/an-apple-juice-puzzle/</link>
	<description>This blog is about the impact of business on society.</description>
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		<title>By: Deloitte Explores the Business Benefits of Lifecycle Assessment &#124; 2Sustain</title>
		<link>http://www.marcgunther.com/2009/07/09/an-apple-juice-puzzle/comment-page-1/#comment-283497</link>
		<dc:creator>Deloitte Explores the Business Benefits of Lifecycle Assessment &#124; 2Sustain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Aug 2009 21:46:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.marcgunther.com/?p=1184#comment-283497</guid>
		<description>[...] that you can determine its environmental impact. But, as Marc Gunther points out in his excellent post about everyday supermarket apple juice, the calculations involved are anything but simple [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] that you can determine its environmental impact. But, as Marc Gunther points out in his excellent post about everyday supermarket apple juice, the calculations involved are anything but simple [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Stewart</title>
		<link>http://www.marcgunther.com/2009/07/09/an-apple-juice-puzzle/comment-page-1/#comment-273215</link>
		<dc:creator>Stewart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jul 2009 14:21:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.marcgunther.com/?p=1184#comment-273215</guid>
		<description>Many people confuse &quot;organic&quot; with &quot;environmental conservation&quot;, but there really is no relationship between the two.  The organic label was conceived of as a fallout from the rise of unhealthy, over-processed foods, of specific concern was the use of unhealthy pesticides and herbicides.  The fact that these chemicals were also harming nature was merely a coincidence.   This is something anyone concerned with &quot;environmental conservation&quot; should realize the next time they consider buying &quot;organic&quot; for the wrong reason.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Many people confuse &#8220;organic&#8221; with &#8220;environmental conservation&#8221;, but there really is no relationship between the two.  The organic label was conceived of as a fallout from the rise of unhealthy, over-processed foods, of specific concern was the use of unhealthy pesticides and herbicides.  The fact that these chemicals were also harming nature was merely a coincidence.   This is something anyone concerned with &#8220;environmental conservation&#8221; should realize the next time they consider buying &#8220;organic&#8221; for the wrong reason.</p>
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		<title>By: Gernot Wagner</title>
		<link>http://www.marcgunther.com/2009/07/09/an-apple-juice-puzzle/comment-page-1/#comment-268471</link>
		<dc:creator>Gernot Wagner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Jul 2009 23:36:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.marcgunther.com/?p=1184#comment-268471</guid>
		<description>Marc,

Just briefly in response to your July 12 comment: LCA is useful, and I agree that Wal-Mart&#039;s new sustainability index is a major step in the right direction.

The point of cap-and-trade for carbon, though, is that we don&#039;t need full LCAs for every one of some 10 billion products sold in the world to then be able to price the externalities correctly. With a strong overall cap on carbon, we&#039;ll be able to internalize the carbon externalities without knowing any of these individual product-by-product impacts.

Best,
Gernot</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marc,</p>
<p>Just briefly in response to your July 12 comment: LCA is useful, and I agree that Wal-Mart&#8217;s new sustainability index is a major step in the right direction.</p>
<p>The point of cap-and-trade for carbon, though, is that we don&#8217;t need full LCAs for every one of some 10 billion products sold in the world to then be able to price the externalities correctly. With a strong overall cap on carbon, we&#8217;ll be able to internalize the carbon externalities without knowing any of these individual product-by-product impacts.</p>
<p>Best,<br />
Gernot</p>
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		<title>By: Wal-Mart's new sustainability index &#124; Marc Gunther</title>
		<link>http://www.marcgunther.com/2009/07/09/an-apple-juice-puzzle/comment-page-1/#comment-268392</link>
		<dc:creator>Wal-Mart's new sustainability index &#124; Marc Gunther</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Jul 2009 01:59:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.marcgunther.com/?p=1184#comment-268392</guid>
		<description>[...] &#171; An apple juice puzzle [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] &laquo; An apple juice puzzle [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Marc</title>
		<link>http://www.marcgunther.com/2009/07/09/an-apple-juice-puzzle/comment-page-1/#comment-264920</link>
		<dc:creator>Marc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Jul 2009 14:06:52 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Dave and Gernot, you both make excellent points. Even once we understand the full environmental impacts on a product, the challenge will be to price those into the marketplace. Carbon pricing is a good start, although I don&#039;t think Waxman-Markey will go far enough to set a meaningful price on carbon, for a number of reasons.
While I don&#039;t want to get ahead of myself, watch this space over the next few days for a major story about LCA that could bring the idea into the mainstream.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave and Gernot, you both make excellent points. Even once we understand the full environmental impacts on a product, the challenge will be to price those into the marketplace. Carbon pricing is a good start, although I don&#8217;t think Waxman-Markey will go far enough to set a meaningful price on carbon, for a number of reasons.<br />
While I don&#8217;t want to get ahead of myself, watch this space over the next few days for a major story about LCA that could bring the idea into the mainstream.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.marcgunther.com/2009/07/09/an-apple-juice-puzzle/comment-page-1/#comment-264877</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Jul 2009 13:43:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.marcgunther.com/?p=1184#comment-264877</guid>
		<description>Marc-

LCA makes a great construct for determining what processing aspects can have the greatest environmental impacts.  LCA may also provide the foundation for determining the theoretical costs and benefits for pollution prevention or reduction to both producers and consumers. What LCA will not yet do is facilitate the finance necessary to install such improvements. Since prices for most environmental services remain deeply discounted (carbon, water, biodiversity etc.) from the prices imputed in LCA modeling,  the financial industry is unable to carry them on term sheets and balance sheets as &quot;public goods&quot; so lending is tough for improvements without direct subsidies (like CDM credits).  LCA, like the environmental accounting schemes of the 80&#039;s nd 90&#039;s, presupposes functioning markets for environmental services. Unless these services become operational and reputational risks, or competetive advantages, LCA will remain an obscure science with limited impact. Ask Bill McDonough.

Dave</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marc-</p>
<p>LCA makes a great construct for determining what processing aspects can have the greatest environmental impacts.  LCA may also provide the foundation for determining the theoretical costs and benefits for pollution prevention or reduction to both producers and consumers. What LCA will not yet do is facilitate the finance necessary to install such improvements. Since prices for most environmental services remain deeply discounted (carbon, water, biodiversity etc.) from the prices imputed in LCA modeling,  the financial industry is unable to carry them on term sheets and balance sheets as &#8220;public goods&#8221; so lending is tough for improvements without direct subsidies (like CDM credits).  LCA, like the environmental accounting schemes of the 80&#8217;s nd 90&#8217;s, presupposes functioning markets for environmental services. Unless these services become operational and reputational risks, or competetive advantages, LCA will remain an obscure science with limited impact. Ask Bill McDonough.</p>
<p>Dave</p>
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		<title>By: Gernot Wagner</title>
		<link>http://www.marcgunther.com/2009/07/09/an-apple-juice-puzzle/comment-page-1/#comment-263957</link>
		<dc:creator>Gernot Wagner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jul 2009 04:02:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.marcgunther.com/?p=1184#comment-263957</guid>
		<description>Marc,

That&#039;s indeed a good puzzle, and LCA is one answer. The real answer to cut through this morass of tradeoffs and conflicting advice, of course, is to put a price on pollution through caps on carbon and nitrogen, and to get out of the way.

It’s the most scientifically sound and economically rational solution one could hope for, and it&#039;s liberating for anyone who has ever tried to weigh the benefits of locally grown conventional apples against organic ones hailing from out-of-state in a grocery store aisle. (My answer, with or without cap-and-trade: get the organic one. It&#039;s good for you, and good for the planet. Why would you want to increase pesticide use in your local community?)

That&#039;s also a good case of regulation being truly liberating. It&#039;s not a choice between &quot;liberty and tyranny,&quot; how Michelle Bachman would -- and did -- put it. Well, actually it is. The tyranny, though, is on the side of no cap. The liberty comes with smart regulation.

Looking forward to your follow-on blog post.

Best,
Gernot</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marc,</p>
<p>That&#8217;s indeed a good puzzle, and LCA is one answer. The real answer to cut through this morass of tradeoffs and conflicting advice, of course, is to put a price on pollution through caps on carbon and nitrogen, and to get out of the way.</p>
<p>It’s the most scientifically sound and economically rational solution one could hope for, and it&#8217;s liberating for anyone who has ever tried to weigh the benefits of locally grown conventional apples against organic ones hailing from out-of-state in a grocery store aisle. (My answer, with or without cap-and-trade: get the organic one. It&#8217;s good for you, and good for the planet. Why would you want to increase pesticide use in your local community?)</p>
<p>That&#8217;s also a good case of regulation being truly liberating. It&#8217;s not a choice between &#8220;liberty and tyranny,&#8221; how Michelle Bachman would &#8212; and did &#8212; put it. Well, actually it is. The tyranny, though, is on the side of no cap. The liberty comes with smart regulation.</p>
<p>Looking forward to your follow-on blog post.</p>
<p>Best,<br />
Gernot</p>
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		<title>By: Marc</title>
		<link>http://www.marcgunther.com/2009/07/09/an-apple-juice-puzzle/comment-page-1/#comment-263892</link>
		<dc:creator>Marc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jul 2009 03:31:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.marcgunther.com/?p=1184#comment-263892</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not an LCA expert but clearly we want to dig into the beginning of the supply chain as far as we can. Measuring usage should be doable with many products--i.e., CFL versus incandescents. I don&#039;t know about disposal. This will be a big issue going forward, I think.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not an LCA expert but clearly we want to dig into the beginning of the supply chain as far as we can. Measuring usage should be doable with many products&#8211;i.e., CFL versus incandescents. I don&#8217;t know about disposal. This will be a big issue going forward, I think.</p>
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		<title>By: Benjamin</title>
		<link>http://www.marcgunther.com/2009/07/09/an-apple-juice-puzzle/comment-page-1/#comment-263888</link>
		<dc:creator>Benjamin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jul 2009 03:28:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.marcgunther.com/?p=1184#comment-263888</guid>
		<description>Great observation!
What are your thoughts on how far should the LCA be carried out? Should there be a limit to the assessment?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great observation!<br />
What are your thoughts on how far should the LCA be carried out? Should there be a limit to the assessment?</p>
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